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 An era of change for the Sugiura~@

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Fuji Ren
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PostSubject: An era of change for the Sugiura~@   Thu Feb 12, 2015 11:40 am


Greetings one and all! In a nutshell, for the longest time, I felt like there's needed to be a change in the general direction of the Sugiura.  Tsubine put the first blocks in place with fixing the hiearchy but its come to my opinion that there needs to be more of a change in the way the race is currently formated.  I have ideas of my own, but as of right now, I can't post any, and at the behest of my comrade in arms - Tsubine,  I decided to post this quicker than expected.

As such, this thread is basically where you guys can throw ideas our way on what would make you more hyped/excited to make a Sugiura if you have space for one on your roster. Essentially, it's also a thread to discuss opinions, and to drive the point home, throw out ideas, to either build on another idea and so on and so forth.

So without further ado, ladies and gentlemen, I IMPLORE YOU TO SMAS- I mean discuss. -Ahem-

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Tsubine
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PostSubject: Re: An era of change for the Sugiura~@   Thu Feb 12, 2015 12:02 pm

Agito is right. The Sugiura have had a good run as they have been running since 20whatever. What needs to happen is change and innovation. We don't need to be stuck in the world of yesterday, we need to progress into tomorrow. Now with all of the marketing catch words done, let's get onto actual business.

I had a dream last night; one that involve Dai, Silim, and Agito all fucking the Sugiura hierarchy up. Although that was a dream, it sparked an idea this morning. An idea that will start with a keyword—Legend. This is my suggestion.

The new generation of Sugiura, at least my ideas for it, will be ushered in by the concept of a Legend. This starts with the official Kanji for Sugiura becoming 話貴占. This roughly translates into Precious Tale Holder(s). The second stage of this remodel is simple. Remove the Sacreds altogether.

This sounds radical, but the idea is to remove the concept which makes them be compared to Shinigami, Vizards, and even Arrancar. Releases? No, we won't go with that anymore. This would remove the Sugiura to being 3 separate (main) classes, the Magus, a new Normal, and the Legendaire—all of which are now temporary names. Each one has a new take on the concept of Legend.

The Normal will have a Guardian Beast(s) and will "channel" the the Guardian Beast's "Legend" to form their own powers from it. This could take the form of releases if the user chooses, but it doesn't have to. The Magus will take power from their OWN "Legend." This means that if someone had a reputation of being a warlord, they'd have access to powers like extreme strength, fire, weapon creation, etc. It depends on their "Legend" and how the creator wants to spin it. The Legendaire would be the least changed by this overhaul, as they are a stepping stone for this idea. They gain powers from an object's "Legend," which in turn seals away their Legend's power and prevents them from contracting a Guardian Beast.

I would also suggest the following, for sake of originality: The Sugiura NEED their own Shunpo-like technique. They need to NOT be using Shunpo. I also suggest they have an expanded Kidō equivalent.

EDIT: As per Silim's post, I am editing my post with this addendum: As the origin of the race is currently, I can agree to a point. I mainly am referring to the idea of release stages when referring to the Sacred; plus a Sacred with a GB with my proposal does take away from the idea of the Legendaire—although the idea of Sacreds becoming an optional "channel focus" would potentially work. But that made me think, and honestly, the whole "mutated Shinigami" thing does not really... make sense entirely anymore. On PH, yes, I could see that with all of the... well, weird-ass stuff going on with spiritual particles on there. But here? We don't have things like the Iramasha and what they did with energy nor do we have "Death" and "Life" energies, nor do we have Ziamichi. I just don't see the plausibility for there to be that big of a mutation for there to be a separate race. Therefore, I also suggest editing the origins of the race to be something more NH-friendly with my suggestions.

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PostSubject: Re: An era of change for the Sugiura~@   Thu Feb 12, 2015 2:10 pm

I'm against removing Sacreds, because as the origin of the race is written, Sugiura are MUTATED Shinigami. They're not a completely separate race that sprung up in a distant world, like the Guardian Beasts are. Removing the last semblance of connection to their ancestors strikes me as incredibly odd.

Perhaps remove the NEED for a Sacred for those that use the channeled powers of Guardian Beasts - making Sacreds optional keeps the 'connection' in that some Sugiura are still closer to Shinigami in their genes, while others have left more of their origin behind.

I agree on needing an expanded 'standard' spell list that all Sugiura can learn, be they normal, Magus or Legendaire (with Magi being better with them by virtue of being, well, wizards and magicians, even if their powers manifest in physical prowess). The idea of their own legend and self influencing their powers makes a lot of sense - it would require zero changes to existing Magi, as 'Magecraft' would simply become the art of transforming one's legend into active power, which can be studied, expanded and taught to others (giving us a background for the Clocktower, aka Magus Association) Exceptionally powerful Magi (true magicians or however we want to call beings like Zelretch and, if he is brought back, Dhaos) would then simply have a very highly developed legend, which allows them reality-warper level powers, much like the strongest normal Sugiura and Legendaire can with their channeled legends.

As for a custom Shunpo technique... that's as simple as making up a new name for one. All flash step techniques in Bleach use the same basic technique, you use spirit energy to propel yourself forward by utilizing multiple quick steps that allow for rapid transit over limited distances. So if anyone here is good with names...

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SerenityVerdant
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PostSubject: Re: An era of change for the Sugiura~@   Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:19 pm

>
>
Okay... Since I'm pretty much being pushed into posting here...

WARNING: COMMENTS WILL BE HARSH
Click on Spoiler At Your Own Risk

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Dai
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PostSubject: Re: An era of change for the Sugiura~@   Thu Feb 12, 2015 9:20 pm

How do I put this... I don't think we're ever actually going to get a good and proper rework of the Sugiura going, that could preserve what we originally saw them as, as well as making them something interesting and healthy to the mythos of the site. I don't really have much to contribute to this by way of ideas, bar one: It may be in our best interests to just let the Sugiura go, and if we have to, create a race to replace them with different ideas.
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PostSubject: Re: An era of change for the Sugiura~@   Fri Feb 13, 2015 12:41 am

For starters, while I can't yet post my personal feelings on things as it stands, at the current moment I would like to set one thing straight.

This thread was created for their puuuuure purpose of bringing some life back to my race the same way it seems like life has been brought back to the Shinigami. I love every race here(well except maybe quincy and arrancar), so i'd ask for change if they needed change but what's most important for me in this whole thing is that I don't feel like i'm the only one making Sugiuras. Why? Because if I walk out of this thread without changing anything whatsoever? You guys will continue on, and while alot of what Serenity said was Harsh, they'll be stuck as a boring race. Thus imagine, i'm stuck here while you guys have fun doing other things, essentially making my own race or feeling like they don't have anyone interact with outside of each other. I'm not going to be the NH novelist and my novel being "in the life of the Sugiura". I welcome change.

It has come to my attention that people think there is an exclusive club between me and Silim on matters such as this, and I'd like to clarify that that is simply not true. Once your opinions have been posted, i'm not going to swing some dismissive hammer of disagreement or as a source told me, "butt heads" What I want out of all this is simply an equal merit for both parties. I want something I can go back with with Tsubine and we can work something out for the betterment of all. Feel free to throw out anything you'd love to talk about, that is why I made the thread! Don't, however, be afraid because....




I come in peace






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PostSubject: Re: An era of change for the Sugiura~@   Fri Feb 13, 2015 2:38 am

Throwing out the Guardian Beasts... yeah, no. Not after all the work I put into giving them a mythology and story of their own which would be completely and utterly wasted forever. I understand that some people simply don't like the Sugiura, and that's actually fine... Not everyone needs to enjoy everything. Quincy are even less popular than Sugiura, and nobody proposes we change them...

You could argue that they don't feel 'canon' enough, but I'll be harsh as well: Neither do the Sōnansha.

And Dai, there's no way we can just get rid of the Sugiura and Guardian Beasts. First of all, they've been with the site since the start, which already makes removing them iffy. Second, quite a few people put work into the race - Tsubine, Agito, me, even Raiki who has been a source of a great many ideas to me with them.

Bottom line, not every race is for every player, and that's FINE. You don't complain in a MMORPG if some players don't want to play the mage, you don't complain when someone doesn't like romance novels and instead prefers heroic fantasy, so I see no reason to complain that not everyone enjoys the Sugiura. Again, refer to my statement about Quincy: Majority of the site doesn't like Quincy, we still give people the option to be one. Sure, they're canon, but nobody here put the amount of work into their (the Quincies) race as we did with the Sugiura and Guardian Beasts.


Some actual suggestions from me now:
1. Make it more obvious how people even travel between Sugiura Realm and other worlds. Give them a portal similar to the Senkaimon or Garganta, or establish fixed points of portals and where they are, and what one has to do to get through.
2. Rewrite a lot of our descriptions once we decide on how to rework the types. Serenity isn't wrong in saying that multiple types are very confusing to some people. I don't like the idea of getting rid of them entirely, but a breakdown of them has to be easily understood by someone who has never seen them before. Currently, we fail at truly delivering that.
3. Find ways to make their backstory less convoluted. That will probably mean getting rid of some of the 'centuries old grudges' and what not, simply to give an easier overview. The full timeline of the Guardian Beasts should be kept (if only because writing that thing out was hell on earth), but not be even remotely necessary to ever read or understand! People should be able to create Sugiura and solo Guardian Beasts after reading the remade overview. They should NOT have to go read ten pages of history next to figure out how they fit into the backstory and kingdom unless they absolutely, positively WANT to do that, and if they WANT to do it, they need the ability to do so without trouble (I attempted the last point before with the listing of different GB age groups and rough descriptions of their position in history, but in the end I doubt anyone understood half of it)

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PostSubject: Re: An era of change for the Sugiura~@   Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:18 am

Okay, maybe I was somewhat hasty in my initial statement, but I will still stand by a lot of it. Sugiura are, at their core, broken.

There is no reason, mechanically, to not be a Sugiura.

Why should I play Solas as a Shinigami when she has so much more openings in magic as a Sugiura?
Why should I play Kasai as a Human when a Sugiura can do anything he does, better--with more durability and a longer lifespan?
Why should I play Roza as a Quincy when she can have access to a Mystic Code and a fuckload more energy as a Sugiura?
Why should Mei be an Arrancar when her powers are just as easily used by a Sugiura, and she doesn't have to deal with the stigma of being a damn Hollow?

The answer here for all of these is flavor. Which, in my opinion, is not nearly enough. Right now, there are absolutely no drawbacks to playing any character on this site as a Sugiura. This makes them a catch-all, and boring.

Let me list.


  • Humans can do most anything, but as a result have a shorter lifespan than all other races. While they also get the chance to become another race after death, they may not keep their powers.

  • Arrancar get the better part of the powers of a Hollow without the all-encompassing desire to consume souls. Unfortunately, being an Arrancar in the other realms is a bit of a negative.

  • Quincies... let's be real, nobody really wants to play a Quincy unless it's for flavor reasons. They need work.

  • Shinigami are, among all other things, martial in focus. Even with Kidō and the magic it brings, there is a limited list of magicks that Shinigami can perform, with little actual diversity.

  • Sōnansha get to be basically human but with a longer lifespan and superhuman abilities, but in exchange for that crave sustenance almost all the time.

  • Vizards get all the benefits of Shinigami and Hollow, but with an inner beast that seeks to consume its host's psyche and take over the body. Whenever they use their full strength they risk losing themselves.


Sugiura, on the other hand, lack any kind of major flaw. Sure, some Sugiura have Alters, but those ones could just as easily be played as a Vizard. What do the Alter-less classes lose? Nothing. They even have all of these classes to cover any missing bases. Normal Sugiura not doing it for you? Play a Magus! This one has magic! That not complex enough? Play a Liner! Rip your hair out as you try to work out what even the Hell they do (This could be seen as a flaw, if only you couldn't simply play a different Class of Sugiura)!

So, let's look at the identities that each of the races has.

Human: Jack-of-all-Trades, can be pretty much anything, doesn't live very long
- Sōnansha: Long-lived human, less flexibility, more superhuman-ness
- Quincy: Quincy Pride but seriously, ranged supremacy

Shinigami: Martial kings--some can be ranged, some can be magical, but most retain their power as close-up fighters.

Arrancar: All the power of a Hollow (essentially power of raw energy), none of the soul-crushing negatives.

Vizard: The best of both Shinigami and Hollow, with a bothersome passenger to limit your power.

So what is this list missing? I'll give you a moment to think.

Magic. None of these races has a focus primarily on magic, with a lesser focus on martial prowess.

So why not make the Sugiura primarily mages? Stick with the idea of how Magus Sugiura work. Build around that. Make Guardian Beasts more like familiars than inner spirits. Lessen their impact on the world.

Remove the Sugiura Realm. Make them a part of the Material World, maybe (story-wise) a continent is now Sugiura-run. Maybe they're not actually spirits. Give us two things: A flavor reason to want to play a Sugiura, and a mechanics reason to avoid playing one.

I'll have more input later.
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PostSubject: Re: An era of change for the Sugiura~@   Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:37 am

Alright, while I hate conflict and whatnot, I do have to agree with Dai on some points, and I have to agree with Silim on some points.

As for Silim, I do agree flavor is incredibly important. My character's tend to be deeply rooted in WHAT they are, and that is a huge part of who they are as a character. Snopy's core identity is based around being a Vizard, and if that was taken away that identity would be lost. Destiny's identity is based entirely around the Sōnansha and how THAT functions as a race (she quite simply wouldn't make sense as another race, period, the more I think about it the more I realize it).

But that brings us to what Dai said, SOMETHING needs to be done with the Sugiura. When I look at them, I unfortunately only see a catch all Shinigami clone. While I tried making some Sugiura, in the end being Sugiura never ended up as a core part of who the character was, I could literally have made them Shinigami or human and had the same person. Yes you could argue making them deal with the Sugiura realm would remedy that, but I think that a race shouldn't be REQUIRED to mingle in that race's organization for it to be a core part of the character (and to be perfectly honest, having 3 dimension is already hard as fuck to RP, making a 4th is even harder).

So basically when you combine everything I've said it comes down to this. I don't WANT the Sugiura to up and vanish. I like variety, so the addition of 2 races (Sug and Sōnansha) is amazing to me. But the Sug has to be made more...interesting, and quite frankly more accessible. They need to be that a character whom does/does not associate with the rest of the race can have Sugiura as a core identity, where making the character as another race isn't so simple. I WANT there to be a solution that makes everyone happy, but at this point all I can do is give input and hope something good results from it.

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